The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
trend.

The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
means more of them will work even better. PLEASE, please, put them on
your trailer and car. There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
thing you can to to help.

If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.

Bill Daniels
SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman

Bill,

On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:10:10 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:

> The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> trend.

Does this exclude temporary memberships (e.g., FAST program)? How much would the membership normally grow in the spring?

On Saturday, May 26, 2012 3:30:52 PM UTC-6, David Reitter wrote:
> Bill,
>
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:10:10 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
>
> > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > trend.
>
> Does this exclude temporary memberships (e.g., FAST program)? How much would the membership normally grow in the spring?

There are no Introductory Memberships in the metrics.

FWIW, I put LGG bumper stickers on both my wife's and my son's cars (in addition to mine) and they've been getting asked about gliding.

Frank Whiteley

On May 26, 3:30*pm, David Reitter > wrote:
> Bill,
>
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:10:10 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
> > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > trend.
>
> Does this exclude temporary memberships (e.g., FAST program)? *How much would the membership normally grow in the spring?

What Frank says - all full memberships. The results are above
seasonal trends - but I still have my fingers crossed.

On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:47:44 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:

> What Frank says - all full memberships. The results are above
> seasonal trends - but I still have my fingers crossed.

Nice, congrats. I'm going to get another sticker for the van. (The trailer doesn't move around enough.)

By the way, I think we've been doing well attracting new members this spring in our small club (+10% membership). Introductory memberships akin to FAST help. The extensive coverage in our local newspaper's weekend edition last summer also brought a lot of interest (rides mostly, but even that helps sustain the club).

Perhaps having a press kit available would make it easier for clubs to get the attention of their local news outlets (newspapers, TV stations). This could contain news articles about local gliding clubs published in the last few years, some basic info clearing up misconceptions and terminology.

On May 26, 3:56*pm, David Reitter > wrote:
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:47:44 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
> > What Frank says - all full memberships. *The results are above
> > seasonal trends - but I still have my fingers crossed.
>
> Nice, congrats. *I'm going to get another sticker for the van. *(The trailer doesn't move around enough.)
>
> By the way, I think we've been doing well attracting new members this spring in our small club (+10% membership). *Introductory memberships akin to FAST help. *The extensive coverage in our local newspaper's weekend edition last summer also brought a lot of interest (rides mostly, but even that helps sustain the club).
>
> Perhaps having a press kit available would make it easier for clubs to get the attention of their local news outlets (newspapers, TV stations). * This could contain news articles about local gliding clubs published in the last few years, some basic info clearing up misconceptions and terminology..

There is a great press kit put together by Val Paget. It's available
through the SSA office or from Val herself.

On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:56:51 PM UTC-4, David Reitter wrote:

> some basic info clearing up misconceptions and terminology.

I wish the media would stop reporting routine "land outs" as "emergency landing" and "crashes".

On May 26, 5:47*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On May 26, 3:30*pm, David Reitter > wrote:
>
> > Bill,
>
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:10:10 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
> > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > trend.
>
> > Does this exclude temporary memberships (e.g., FAST program)? *How much would the membership normally grow in the spring?
>
> What Frank says - all full memberships. *The results are above
> seasonal trends - but I still have my fingers crossed.

Frank, I had my first visit yesterday to the National Soaring Museum
at Harris Hill. Among the large collection of beautifully restored
vintage gliders and the gift shop too, there were none of the LGG
bumper stickers. Even an enquiry at the counter yeilded only
ignorance of the stickers and the program.

Cab someone at Harris Hill rectify this?

On Sunday, May 27, 2012 5:04:55 AM UTC-6, Charlie Papa wrote:
> On May 26, 5:47*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> > On May 26, 3:30*pm, David Reitter > wrote:
> >
> > > Bill,
> >
> > > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:10:10 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
> > > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > > trend.
> >
> > > Does this exclude temporary memberships (e.g., FAST program)? *How much would the membership normally grow in the spring?
> >
> > What Frank says - all full memberships. *The results are above
> > seasonal trends - but I still have my fingers crossed.
>
> Frank, I had my first visit yesterday to the National Soaring Museum
> at Harris Hill. Among the large collection of beautifully restored
> vintage gliders and the gift shop too, there were none of the LGG
> bumper stickers. Even an enquiry at the counter yeilded only
> ignorance of the stickers and the program.
>
> Cab someone at Harris Hill rectify this?

I'm on it.

Frank Whiteley

On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> trend.
>
> The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> thing you can to to help.
>
> If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> Bill Daniels
> SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman

This is great news.
The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
to stick!
John Cochrane

On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > trend.
>
> > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > thing you can to to help.
>
> > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> > Bill Daniels
> > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
>
> This is great news.
> The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> to stick!
> John Cochrane

John, that's going to be the hard part.

On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:55:18 -0700 (PDT), son_of_flubber
> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:56:51 PM UTC-4, David Reitter wrote:
>
>> some basic info clearing up misconceptions and terminology.
>
>I wish the media would stop reporting routine "land outs" as "emergency landing" and "crashes".

And I wish we had world peace. Let me know which happens first...

On May 27, 10:21*am, Bill D > wrote:
> On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > trend.
>
> > > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > > thing you can to to help.
>
> > > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> > > Bill Daniels
> > > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
>
> > This is great news.
> > The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> > Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> > to stick!
> > John Cochrane
>
> John, that's going to be the hard part.

But it is the crucial part. In fact, we get a lot of people in the
front door. But if 1:10 rides take a lesson, 1:10 lessons get a
license, 1:10 licenses fly cross country, and 1:10 of those are still
with us in 5 years, we're lucky.
I am all for the SSA's new growth programs. But I do think we need to
add some keep efforts.
John Cochrane

On May 27, 1:40*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On May 27, 10:21*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
> > wrote:
>
> > > On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > > trend.
>
> > > > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > > > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > > > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > > > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > > > thing you can to to help.
>
> > > > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > > > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> > > > Bill Daniels
> > > > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
>
> > > This is great news.
> > > The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> > > Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> > > to stick!
> > > John Cochrane
>
> > John, that's going to be the hard part.
>
> But it is the crucial part. In fact, we get a lot of people in the
> front door. But if 1:10 rides take a lesson, 1:10 lessons get a
> license, 1:10 licenses fly cross country, and 1:10 of those are still
> with us in 5 years, we're lucky.
> I am all for the SSA's new growth programs. But I do think we need to
> add some keep efforts.
> John Cochrane

Yes, John, retention is absolutely critical.

If you have some ideas, we'd like to hear them.

On May 27, 3:11*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On May 27, 1:40*pm, John Cochrane >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 27, 10:21*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > > > trend.
>
> > > > > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > > > > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > > > > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > > > > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > > > > thing you can to to help.
>
> > > > > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > > > > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> > > > > Bill Daniels
> > > > > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
>
> > > > This is great news.
> > > > The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> > > > Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> > > > to stick!
> > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > John, that's going to be the hard part.
>
> > But it is the crucial part. In fact, we get a lot of people in the
> > front door. But if 1:10 rides take a lesson, 1:10 lessons get a
> > license, 1:10 licenses fly cross country, and 1:10 of those are still
> > with us in 5 years, we're lucky.
> > I am all for the SSA's new growth programs. But I do think we need to
> > add some keep efforts.
> > John Cochrane
>
> Yes, John, retention is absolutely critical.
>
> If you have some ideas, we'd like to hear them.

Form a task force and develop a reasonable cost solution to the Blanik
AD that is acceptable to the FAA. This would jump start instruction
all over the US immediately.

On Monday, May 28, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
> On May 27, 3:11*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> > On May 27, 1:40*pm, John Cochrane >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On May 27, 10:21*am, Bill D > wrote:
> >
> > > > On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > > > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > > > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > > > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > > > > trend.
> >
> > > > > > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > > > > > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > > > > > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > > > > > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > > > > > thing you can to to help.
> >
> > > > > > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > > > > > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
> >
> > > > > > Bill Daniels
> > > > > > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
> >
> > > > > This is great news.
> > > > > The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> > > > > Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> > > > > to stick!
> > > > > John Cochrane
> >
> > > > John, that's going to be the hard part.
> >
> > > But it is the crucial part. In fact, we get a lot of people in the
> > > front door. But if 1:10 rides take a lesson, 1:10 lessons get a
> > > license, 1:10 licenses fly cross country, and 1:10 of those are still
> > > with us in 5 years, we're lucky.
> > > I am all for the SSA's new growth programs. But I do think we need to
> > > add some keep efforts.
> > > John Cochrane
> >
> > Yes, John, retention is absolutely critical.
> >
> > If you have some ideas, we'd like to hear them.
>
> Form a task force and develop a reasonable cost solution to the Blanik
> AD that is acceptable to the FAA. This would jump start instruction
> all over the US immediately.

I think the Blanik owners should form a type club and seek a solution of their own. Aircraft from Bonanzas to T34's have done just this and created solutions. The SSA consists of volunteers and a few paid staff members in Hobbs. The SSA appears hardly equipped to engineer a solution with even the best of "task force committees". Why is there no volunteer in the Blanik community uniting you guys?

Lane
XF

On May 28, 7:38*pm, wrote:
> On Monday, May 28, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > On May 27, 3:11*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> > > On May 27, 1:40*pm, John Cochrane >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On May 27, 10:21*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > > On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > > > > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > > > > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > > > > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > > > > > trend.
>
> > > > > > > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > > > > > > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > > > > > > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > > > > > > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > > > > > > thing you can to to help.
>
> > > > > > > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > > > > > > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> > > > > > > Bill Daniels
> > > > > > > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
>
> > > > > > This is great news.
> > > > > > The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> > > > > > Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> > > > > > to stick!
> > > > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > > > John, that's going to be the hard part.
>
> > > > But it is the crucial part. In fact, we get a lot of people in the
> > > > front door. But if 1:10 rides take a lesson, 1:10 lessons get a
> > > > license, 1:10 licenses fly cross country, and 1:10 of those are still
> > > > with us in 5 years, we're lucky.
> > > > I am all for the SSA's new growth programs. But I do think we need to
> > > > add some keep efforts.
> > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > Yes, John, retention is absolutely critical.
>
> > > If you have some ideas, we'd like to hear them.
>
> > Form a task force and develop a reasonable cost solution to the Blanik
> > AD that is acceptable to the FAA. *This would jump start instruction
> > all over the US immediately.
>
> I think the Blanik owners should form a type club and seek a solution of their own. *Aircraft from Bonanzas to T34's have done just this and created solutions. *The SSA consists of volunteers and a few paid staff members in Hobbs. *The SSA appears hardly equipped to engineer a solution with even the best of "task force committees". *Why is there no volunteer in the Blanik community uniting you guys?
>
> Lane
> XF

I agree with Lane. I would also suggest being realistic with your
expectations. The fix, if there ever is one, may be just too
expensive for the old L-13. The Bonanza's and T-34's were valuable
airplanes whose resale value could cover the cost of fixing them.
It's pretty hard to see that happening with a $10,000 glider. In the
long run, it may be better to direct your energy and finances toward
buying a new glider.

On May 28, 8:43*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On May 28, 7:38*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Monday, May 28, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > > On May 27, 3:11*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> > > > On May 27, 1:40*pm, John Cochrane >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On May 27, 10:21*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > > > > > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > > > > > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > > > > > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > > > > > > trend.
>
> > > > > > > > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > > > > > > > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > > > > > > > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > > > > > > > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > > > > > > > thing you can to to help.
>
> > > > > > > > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > > > > > > > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> > > > > > > > Bill Daniels
> > > > > > > > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
>
> > > > > > > This is great news.
> > > > > > > The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> > > > > > > Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> > > > > > > to stick!
> > > > > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > > > > John, that's going to be the hard part.
>
> > > > > But it is the crucial part. In fact, we get a lot of people in the
> > > > > front door. But if 1:10 rides take a lesson, 1:10 lessons get a
> > > > > license, 1:10 licenses fly cross country, and 1:10 of those are still
> > > > > with us in 5 years, we're lucky.
> > > > > I am all for the SSA's new growth programs. But I do think we need to
> > > > > add some keep efforts.
> > > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > > Yes, John, retention is absolutely critical.
>
> > > > If you have some ideas, we'd like to hear them.
>
> > > Form a task force and develop a reasonable cost solution to the Blanik
> > > AD that is acceptable to the FAA. *This would jump start instruction
> > > all over the US immediately.
>
> > I think the Blanik owners should form a type club and seek a solution of their own. *Aircraft from Bonanzas to T34's have done just this and created solutions. *The SSA consists of volunteers and a few paid staff members in Hobbs. *The SSA appears hardly equipped to engineer a solution with even the best of "task force committees". *Why is there no volunteer in the Blanik community uniting you guys?
>
> > Lane
> > XF
>
> I agree with Lane. *I would also suggest being realistic with your
> expectations. *The fix, if there ever is one, may be just too
> expensive for the old L-13. *The Bonanza's and T-34's were valuable
> airplanes whose resale value could cover the cost of fixing them.
> It's pretty hard to see that happening with a $10,000 glider. *In the
> long run, it may be better to direct your energy and finances toward
> buying a new glider.

Bill,

Your opinion has been known from the beginning. You are sadly out of
touch with the majority of small clubs that have been essentially
grounded by this AD. I know many operations that have been shut down
for the last two years. Maybe you belong to a club with great
resources, but many small clubs can not support the debt load required
for a new trainer. While you precieve this to be the owners problem,
we looked to the SSA for leadership and essentially found none. This
has been one of the greatest failures of the SSA to date. I have
spoken to all levels of the administration and found a total lack of
leadership from our organization.

I am serious that if the SSA is serious about growing the sport and
number of pilots it will provide the leadership and influence to find
a viable solution to this problem.

On May 28, 9:05*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On May 28, 8:43*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 7:38*pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Monday, May 28, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > > > On May 27, 3:11*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> > > > > On May 27, 1:40*pm, John Cochrane >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On May 27, 10:21*am, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On May 27, 7:31*am, John Cochrane >
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On May 26, 4:10*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > The result is small, may be a fluke and it's too soon for the
> > > > > > > > > LetsGoGliding campaign to claim credit but, since February, SSA
> > > > > > > > > membership has grown at least 50 members every month with 74 new
> > > > > > > > > members in April which represents a reversal of the long term downward
> > > > > > > > > trend.
>
> > > > > > > > > The number of bumper stickers and trailer graphics on the road is
> > > > > > > > > still small. However, if they are part of the reason for growth, it
> > > > > > > > > means more of them will work even better. *PLEASE, please, put them on
> > > > > > > > > your trailer and car. *There are other aspects of LGG but it's the one
> > > > > > > > > thing you can to to help.
>
> > > > > > > > > If the trend holds for another couple of months, it's time to be
> > > > > > > > > thinking of new trainers - the Euro is falling.
>
> > > > > > > > > Bill Daniels
> > > > > > > > > SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman
>
> > > > > > > > This is great news.
> > > > > > > > The SSA typically gains 20% new members every year and loses 22%.
> > > > > > > > Let's all be nice to the newcomers and see if we can get more of them
> > > > > > > > to stick!
> > > > > > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > > > > > John, that's going to be the hard part.
>
> > > > > > But it is the crucial part. In fact, we get a lot of people in the
> > > > > > front door. But if 1:10 rides take a lesson, 1:10 lessons get a
> > > > > > license, 1:10 licenses fly cross country, and 1:10 of those are still
> > > > > > with us in 5 years, we're lucky.
> > > > > > I am all for the SSA's new growth programs. But I do think we need to
> > > > > > add some keep efforts.
> > > > > > John Cochrane
>
> > > > > Yes, John, retention is absolutely critical.
>
> > > > > If you have some ideas, we'd like to hear them.
>
> > > > Form a task force and develop a reasonable cost solution to the Blanik
> > > > AD that is acceptable to the FAA. *This would jump start instruction
> > > > all over the US immediately.
>
> > > I think the Blanik owners should form a type club and seek a solution of their own. *Aircraft from Bonanzas to T34's have done just this and created solutions. *The SSA consists of volunteers and a few paid staff members in Hobbs. *The SSA appears hardly equipped to engineer a solution with even the best of "task force committees". *Why is there no volunteer in the Blanik community uniting you guys?
>
> > > Lane
> > > XF
>
> > I agree with Lane. *I would also suggest being realistic with your
> > expectations. *The fix, if there ever is one, may be just too
> > expensive for the old L-13. *The Bonanza's and T-34's were valuable
> > airplanes whose resale value could cover the cost of fixing them.
> > It's pretty hard to see that happening with a $10,000 glider. *In the
> > long run, it may be better to direct your energy and finances toward
> > buying a new glider.
>
> Bill,
>
> Your opinion has been known from the beginning. You are sadly out of
> touch with the majority of small clubs that have been essentially
> grounded by this AD. *I know many operations that have been shut down
> for the last two years. *Maybe you belong to a club with great
> resources, but many small clubs can not support the debt load required
> for a new trainer. *While you precieve this to be the owners problem,
> we looked to the SSA for leadership and essentially found none. *This
> has been one of the greatest failures of the SSA to date. *I have
> spoken to all levels of the administration and found a total lack of
> leadership from our organization.
>
> I am serious that if the SSA is serious about growing the sport and
> number of pilots it will provide the leadership and influence to find
> a viable solution to this problem.

No, Tim, I'm very much in touch with the L-13 problem. We have club
just down the airfield with just one grounded Blanik. They're
everywhere. It's a very sad thing to see. Like you, I feel the
frustration. Solving the trainer shortage brought on by the grounding
is right at the top of the LGG proposal.

Despite your allegations, SSA Director Steve Northcraft has spent many
months doing a heroic job on the L-13 problem. Steve is an Aerospace
engineer with much experience in aero structures and many contacts at
the FAA. I can't think of anyone better qualified to work the issue.
There will most likely be a fix eventually but the cost is probably
not going to be what people are hoping for. (I hope I'm wrong about
that.) Please try not to shoot the messenger.

Maybe I am missing something obvious, but how/where can I get the LGG bumper sticker?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:28:00 AM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> Maybe I am missing something obvious, but how/where can I get the LGG bumper sticker?
>
> Ramy

Your chapter should have received some a while back. More available for the asking. Ask your chapter leadership.

Frank Whiteley

On May 28, 9:01*pm, Bill D > wrote:

> There will most likely be a fix eventually but the cost is probably
> not going to be what people are hoping for. *(I hope I'm wrong about
> that.) *Please try not to shoot the messenger.


I was talking to several folks at a soaring event this weekend, and I
had been on the bandwagon of "ditch the L-13s and lets buy something
new" for awhile... But their comments really made me see this in a
new light: We've been considering the L-13 a $10k - $20k airplane,
and the idea of dumping $10k - $15k into it for a fix seems "wrong"
because its such a huge percentage of the airplane's value. BUT,
there's another way to look at it. Instead of considering the "street
value" of the L-13, try considering the cost of the L-13 repair in
contrast with the next-better alternative; which is either a Grob-103
or something like a TST-14 "Bonus" or SZD "Perkoz":
G-103 = Roughly $35k+ (also likely to be high-time and parts are ??)
TST-14 = Unknown, but gotta be at _least_ $60k+ I'm guessing
SZD "Perkoz" = Looks like a sweet setup and cheaper than an ASK-21,
but its still ~$85k (public quotes of 65,000 euros)

So in light of THOSE costs, dropping $10k - $15k on a Blanik is a hell
of a lot cheaper.

Of course, its still just a short-term fix. Like our aging membership
issues, we find ourselves in a hole. This time around its equipment
and finances. The US Soaring scene leaned on tired 2-33's (and
L-13's) for way too long and did not do a good job of building
infrastructure or making stepwise investments in better equipment. So
now we have to try to dig ourselves out of a mess. I sincerely hope
that more clubs do a better job of long-term financial planning than
they have done over the last 20 years; it seems that few people
consider charging enough money to put aside funds for re-covering,
buying new gear, or any other multi-year goals.

On the topic of longer-term solutions, I would love to see what the
new Lea County State Bank trainer loans look like. With the EAA and
some aviation-oriented banks I can get 7-15 year loan terms on both
finished aircraft and even un-built KITS. It seems that similar
financing should be available for sailplanes, with long terms given
the lengthy service-life that our aircraft experience.

I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
taking out loans from members)? Getting ~15 members to each pony up
$5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. And promising
individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
some stock portfolios! :-P

In the "I wish..." column, I'd love to see a non-Euro-currency country
out there building an inexpensive (say $50k - $60k) trainer. The
aerodynamics nowadays are well-understood so it should be easy to make
something simple that has no "bad habits". I've always been told that
its the tooling and labor costs - especially the labor costs - that's
the issue. So shouldn't it be possible to get a known group of
aerodynamic and mechanical engineers together to make a solid design,
and then fabricate the darned thing in a region with lower labor
costs? I'm thinking South America, India, or another area where
technically-oriented people live and they can put something together
without major quality-control concerns... Seems like it should be
possible (see: Embraer, or some of the aerospace contracting that's
done in the Asia-Pacific region). Of course, Windward performance
comes to mind for a "local" solution. I'm sure they have a few
Duckhawk orders to process right now, but I wonder if Windward could
switch from PrePreg to some simpler fiberglass & kevlar layups and
operate cheaply enough to put out a reasonably-priced trainer that's
sold in US Dollars?

OK, enough wishing for now...

--Noel
P.S. I am sure a few people are thinking about chiming in and saying
that a trainer has to be metal because it needs to be tied out. My
only response is: If you can get the trainer down to a reasonable
price, you can afford a couple of extra thousand dollars for a nice
set of covers. Also, Polyurethane is probably a good idea (to make
repainting/refinishing easier over the next couple of decades), no?

"noel.wade" wrote in message
...

On May 28, 9:01 pm, Bill D > wrote:


<snip>

I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
taking out loans from members)? Getting ~15 members to each pony up
$5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. And promising
individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
some stock portfolios! :-P



My small club did exactly what you suggest. The choice before us was
basically pony up for a newer trainer or fold.
We borrowed money from seven members and purchased a Grob 103 from a German
club.
Getting the money was the easy part! Dealing with two countries, shipping
companies, Americanizing the trailer etc. was a LOT of work.
We have been flying it (and making the payments) for about a year now.

Bob McKellar

On May 29, 1:18*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
> taking out loans from members)? *Getting ~15 members to each pony up
> $5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. *And promising
> individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
> most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
> some stock portfolios! :-P

About 5 years ago I and a few others did precisely that, loaned money
to a local club to buy a nice G103C that had belonged to a (sadly)
deceased member. We had the option of either 5% interest over a 3
year term or no interest and waiving associated flight fees for the
glider. Works well if you have one glider to replace, and members who
have ready access to cash, might be a bit tougher during this
perpetual recession. It was lucky we did this, primary training fleet
was two L-13s, along with two older G103s.

> In the "I wish..." column, I'd love to see a non-Euro-currency country
> out there building an inexpensive (say $50k - $60k) trainer. *The
> aerodynamics nowadays are well-understood so it should be easy to make
> something simple that has no "bad habits". *I've always been told that
> its the tooling and labor costs - especially the labor costs - that's
> the issue. *So shouldn't it be possible to get a known group of
> aerodynamic and mechanical engineers together to make a solid design,
> and then fabricate the darned thing in a region with lower labor
> costs? I'm thinking South America, India, or another area where
> technically-oriented people live and they can put something together
> without major quality-control concerns... Seems like it should be
> possible (see: Embraer, or some of the aerospace contracting that's
> done in the Asia-Pacific region). *Of course, Windward performance
> comes to mind for a "local" solution. *I'm sure they have a few
> Duckhawk orders to process right now, but I wonder if Windward could
> switch from PrePreg to some simpler fiberglass & kevlar layups and
> operate cheaply enough to put out a reasonably-priced trainer that's
> sold in US Dollars?

Paging Bob Kuykendall! Please enter URL http://www.kickstarter.com/
8^)

Also, my favorite bizarre concept, an ASK13 clone constructed
primarily of CNC cut fiberglass honeycomb and precured sheets, glued
together like a giant balsa wood model:

http://www.retroplane.net/forum/files/optimist_195.pdf

Marc

On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:18:44 PM UTC-4, noel.wade wrote:

> new" for awhile... But their comments really made me see this in a
> new light: We've been considering the L-13 a $10k - $20k airplane,
> and the idea of dumping $10k - $15k into it for a fix seems "wrong"
> because its such a huge percentage of the airplane's value. BUT,
> there's another way to look at it. Instead of considering the "street
> value" of the L-13, try considering the cost of the L-13 repair in
> contrast with the next-better alternative; which is either a Grob-103
> or something like a TST-14 "Bonus" or SZD "Perkoz":
> G-103 = Roughly $35k+ (also likely to be high-time and parts are ??)

You point out financing instruments in your post, rightfully so.

This view on the Blanik repair, however, is described as a cash-flow rather than equity issue. If we set aside liquidity, the picture is this.

When the AD came out those Blaniks lost their value in an instant. No further action will change that. The two options you point out amount to this:

1) Invest, say, $12k to obtain $15k in equity, or
2) Spend $35k on a Twin Astir and get $35k in equity.

At 3.5% (some of our members have offered to use their home equity line of credit for this), we're looking at $420 vs. $1225 p.a. in capital cost, and substantially higher cost in hull insurance. A medium-sized club will have to carefully consider if that makes sense. NB, whether you have to go to a bank or use existing capital, the capital cost will be the same apart from the spread in interest rates.

I've been pushing club members to look at these things in capital cost and various forms of equity rather than just indulging in cash-basis accounting.. Among the things that it can convincingly show is that a club should not afford to keep gliders around that don't fly as much, or operate a higher-value but less-useful towplane.

On May 29, 3:25*pm, Marc > wrote:
> On May 29, 1:18*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
> > I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
> > taking out loans from members)? *Getting ~15 members to each pony up
> > $5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. *And promising
> > individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
> > most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
> > some stock portfolios! :-P
>
> About 5 years ago I and a few others did precisely that, loaned money
> to a local club to buy a nice G103C that had belonged to a (sadly)
> deceased member. *We had the option of either 5% interest over a 3
> year term or no interest and waiving associated flight fees for the
> glider. *Works well if you have one glider to replace, and members who
> have ready access to cash, might be a bit tougher during this
> perpetual recession. *It was lucky we did this, primary training fleet
> was two L-13s, along with two older G103s.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In the "I wish..." column, I'd love to see a non-Euro-currency country
> > out there building an inexpensive (say $50k - $60k) trainer. *The
> > aerodynamics nowadays are well-understood so it should be easy to make
> > something simple that has no "bad habits". *I've always been told that
> > its the tooling and labor costs - especially the labor costs - that's
> > the issue. *So shouldn't it be possible to get a known group of
> > aerodynamic and mechanical engineers together to make a solid design,
> > and then fabricate the darned thing in a region with lower labor
> > costs? I'm thinking South America, India, or another area where
> > technically-oriented people live and they can put something together
> > without major quality-control concerns... Seems like it should be
> > possible (see: Embraer, or some of the aerospace contracting that's
> > done in the Asia-Pacific region). *Of course, Windward performance
> > comes to mind for a "local" solution. *I'm sure they have a few
> > Duckhawk orders to process right now, but I wonder if Windward could
> > switch from PrePreg to some simpler fiberglass & kevlar layups and
> > operate cheaply enough to put out a reasonably-priced trainer that's
> > sold in US Dollars?
>
> Paging Bob Kuykendall! *Please enter URLhttp://www.kickstarter.com/
> 8^)
>
> Also, my favorite bizarre concept, an ASK13 clone constructed
> primarily of CNC cut fiberglass honeycomb and precured sheets, glued
> together like a giant balsa wood model:
>
> http://www.retroplane.net/forum/files/optimist_195.pdf
>
> Marc

Actually, Bob has a better idea. How about an US made ASK-21
equivalent constructed with the best modern materials but licensed
under LSA rules?

LSA rules allow 1320 Lb gross (same as an ASK-21) and at least 120 kt
airspeed. (151 knots might be possible. LSA's are limited to 120 kts
max level cruise speed but dive speed does not seem to be restricted.)
There's no need for retractable gear, flaps or faster airspeeds in a
trainer. And, best of all, LSA rules eliminate a huge chunk of type
certificate and production certificate costs. An LSA trainer could be
used for any purpose one with a standard type certificate could.

Don't confuse the light sport PILOT rules which address airspace
access with the light sport AIRCRAFT rules. An LSA flown by a pilot
holding a Private or better does not face those restrictions.

Contact Bob with donations...

On May 29, 3:10*pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
> "noel.wade" *wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> On May 28, 9:01 pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
> taking out loans from members)? *Getting ~15 members to each pony up
> $5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. *And promising
> individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
> most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
> some stock portfolios! :-P
>
> My small club did exactly what you suggest. *The choice before us was
> basically pony up for a newer trainer or fold.
> We borrowed money from seven members and purchased a Grob 103 from a German
> club.
> Getting the money was the easy part! *Dealing with two countries, shipping
> companies, Americanizing the trailer etc. was a LOT of work.
> We have been flying it (and making the payments) for about a year now.
>
> Bob McKellar

How do you think all those L-13's and 2-33's got financed? We faced
an even worse situation than now when the war surplus trainers wore
out. There were nearly 400 and most were gone by the 1960's. It was
tough sell when clubs were faced with buying metal trainers costing
10x what those war surplus trainers cost. There were pilots who left
the sport in a huff over spending that much money on "a damn glider".

Most clubs who survived - and then grew rapidly - got a member to put
up the down payment and financed the rest with a bank - usually Lea
County Bank in Hobbs. LCB says they've never had a glider loan go bad
so they're eager for more of them. They're waiting for your call -
interest rates are at a historic low and the Euro is tanking.

On May 29, 2:18*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> On May 28, 9:01*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > There will most likely be a fix eventually but the cost is probably
> > not going to be what people are hoping for. *(I hope I'm wrong about
> > that.) *Please try not to shoot the messenger.
>
> I was talking to several folks at a soaring event this weekend, and I
> had been on the bandwagon of "ditch the L-13s and lets buy something
> new" for awhile... *But their comments really made me see this in a
> new light: *We've been considering the L-13 a $10k - $20k airplane,
> and the idea of dumping $10k - $15k into it for a fix seems "wrong"
> because its such a huge percentage of the airplane's value. *BUT,
> there's another way to look at it. *Instead of considering the "street
> value" of the L-13, try considering the cost of the L-13 repair in
> contrast with the next-better alternative; which is either a Grob-103
> or something like a TST-14 "Bonus" or SZD "Perkoz":
> G-103 = Roughly $35k+ (also likely to be high-time and parts are ??)
> TST-14 = Unknown, but gotta be at _least_ $60k+ I'm guessing
> SZD "Perkoz" = Looks like a sweet setup and cheaper than an ASK-21,
> but its still ~$85k (public quotes of 65,000 euros)
>
> So in light of THOSE costs, dropping $10k - $15k on a Blanik is a hell
> of a lot cheaper.
>
> Of course, its still just a short-term fix. *Like our aging membership
> issues, we find ourselves in a hole. This time around its equipment
> and finances. *The US Soaring scene leaned on tired 2-33's (and
> L-13's) for way too long and did not do a good job of building
> infrastructure or making stepwise investments in better equipment. *So
> now we have to try to dig ourselves out of a mess. *I sincerely hope
> that more clubs do a better job of long-term financial planning than
> they have done over the last 20 years; it seems that few people
> consider charging enough money to put aside funds for re-covering,
> buying new gear, or any other multi-year goals.
>
> On the topic of longer-term solutions, I would love to see what the
> new Lea County State Bank trainer loans look like. *With the EAA and
> some aviation-oriented banks I can get 7-15 year loan terms on both
> finished aircraft and even un-built KITS. *It seems that similar
> financing should be available for sailplanes, with long terms given
> the lengthy service-life that our aircraft experience.
>
> I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
> taking out loans from members)? *Getting ~15 members to each pony up
> $5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. *And promising
> individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
> most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
> some stock portfolios! :-P
>
> In the "I wish..." column, I'd love to see a non-Euro-currency country
> out there building an inexpensive (say $50k - $60k) trainer. *The
> aerodynamics nowadays are well-understood so it should be easy to make
> something simple that has no "bad habits". *I've always been told that
> its the tooling and labor costs - especially the labor costs - that's
> the issue. *So shouldn't it be possible to get a known group of
> aerodynamic and mechanical engineers together to make a solid design,
> and then fabricate the darned thing in a region with lower labor
> costs? I'm thinking South America, India, or another area where
> technically-oriented people live and they can put something together
> without major quality-control concerns... Seems like it should be
> possible (see: Embraer, or some of the aerospace contracting that's
> done in the Asia-Pacific region). *Of course, Windward performance
> comes to mind for a "local" solution. *I'm sure they have a few
> Duckhawk orders to process right now, but I wonder if Windward could
> switch from PrePreg to some simpler fiberglass & kevlar layups and
> operate cheaply enough to put out a reasonably-priced trainer that's
> sold in US Dollars?
>
> OK, enough wishing for now...
>
> --Noel
> P.S. *I am sure a few people are thinking about chiming in and saying
> that a trainer has to be metal because it needs to be tied out. *My
> only response is: If you can get the trainer down to a reasonable
> price, you can afford a couple of extra thousand dollars for a nice
> set of covers. *Also, Polyurethane is probably a good idea (to make
> repainting/refinishing easier over the next couple of decades), no?

Answering your 'PS' first, I fly ASK-21's which are so incredibly easy
to rig, we rig them every morning and put them back in their trailers
every night. As an old geezer, I've rigged two of them with a couple
of teenage CAP cadets to help. Covered trailers are "hangars on
wheels" which dramatically extend airframe life.

Now, let's say L-13's are now worthless. If you could repair them for
$10k, you have a $10k glider which seems like a good deal. But, it
would be a 1955 design with a 400Lb payload and probably a 1,500 hour
life remaining and no possibility of extensions. OTOH, you could use
that $10k for a down payment on an ASK-21 with an 484 Lb payload and
a18,000 hour life and charge an extra $10/hr for debt service 'til the
loan is paid off. But then, I'm kinda partial to ASK-21's as trainers.

On May 29, 4:40*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On May 29, 2:18*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 9:01*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > There will most likely be a fix eventually but the cost is probably
> > > not going to be what people are hoping for. *(I hope I'm wrong about
> > > that.) *Please try not to shoot the messenger.
>
> > I was talking to several folks at a soaring event this weekend, and I
> > had been on the bandwagon of "ditch the L-13s and lets buy something
> > new" for awhile... *But their comments really made me see this in a
> > new light: *We've been considering the L-13 a $10k - $20k airplane,
> > and the idea of dumping $10k - $15k into it for a fix seems "wrong"
> > because its such a huge percentage of the airplane's value. *BUT,
> > there's another way to look at it. *Instead of considering the "street
> > value" of the L-13, try considering the cost of the L-13 repair in
> > contrast with the next-better alternative; which is either a Grob-103
> > or something like a TST-14 "Bonus" or SZD "Perkoz":
> > G-103 = Roughly $35k+ (also likely to be high-time and parts are ??)
> > TST-14 = Unknown, but gotta be at _least_ $60k+ I'm guessing
> > SZD "Perkoz" = Looks like a sweet setup and cheaper than an ASK-21,
> > but its still ~$85k (public quotes of 65,000 euros)
>
> > So in light of THOSE costs, dropping $10k - $15k on a Blanik is a hell
> > of a lot cheaper.
>
> > Of course, its still just a short-term fix. *Like our aging membership
> > issues, we find ourselves in a hole. This time around its equipment
> > and finances. *The US Soaring scene leaned on tired 2-33's (and
> > L-13's) for way too long and did not do a good job of building
> > infrastructure or making stepwise investments in better equipment. *So
> > now we have to try to dig ourselves out of a mess. *I sincerely hope
> > that more clubs do a better job of long-term financial planning than
> > they have done over the last 20 years; it seems that few people
> > consider charging enough money to put aside funds for re-covering,
> > buying new gear, or any other multi-year goals.
>
> > On the topic of longer-term solutions, I would love to see what the
> > new Lea County State Bank trainer loans look like. *With the EAA and
> > some aviation-oriented banks I can get 7-15 year loan terms on both
> > finished aircraft and even un-built KITS. *It seems that similar
> > financing should be available for sailplanes, with long terms given
> > the lengthy service-life that our aircraft experience.
>
> > I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
> > taking out loans from members)? *Getting ~15 members to each pony up
> > $5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. *And promising
> > individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
> > most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
> > some stock portfolios! :-P
>
> > In the "I wish..." column, I'd love to see a non-Euro-currency country
> > out there building an inexpensive (say $50k - $60k) trainer. *The
> > aerodynamics nowadays are well-understood so it should be easy to make
> > something simple that has no "bad habits". *I've always been told that
> > its the tooling and labor costs - especially the labor costs - that's
> > the issue. *So shouldn't it be possible to get a known group of
> > aerodynamic and mechanical engineers together to make a solid design,
> > and then fabricate the darned thing in a region with lower labor
> > costs? I'm thinking South America, India, or another area where
> > technically-oriented people live and they can put something together
> > without major quality-control concerns... Seems like it should be
> > possible (see: Embraer, or some of the aerospace contracting that's
> > done in the Asia-Pacific region). *Of course, Windward performance
> > comes to mind for a "local" solution. *I'm sure they have a few
> > Duckhawk orders to process right now, but I wonder if Windward could
> > switch from PrePreg to some simpler fiberglass & kevlar layups and
> > operate cheaply enough to put out a reasonably-priced trainer that's
> > sold in US Dollars?
>
> > OK, enough wishing for now...
>
> > --Noel
> > P.S. *I am sure a few people are thinking about chiming in and saying
> > that a trainer has to be metal because it needs to be tied out. *My
> > only response is: If you can get the trainer down to a reasonable
> > price, you can afford a couple of extra thousand dollars for a nice
> > set of covers. *Also, Polyurethane is probably a good idea (to make
> > repainting/refinishing easier over the next couple of decades), no?
>
> Answering your 'PS' first, I fly ASK-21's which are so incredibly easy
> to rig, we rig them every morning and put them back in their trailers
> every night. *As an old geezer, I've rigged two of them with a couple
> of teenage CAP cadets to help. *Covered trailers are "hangars on
> wheels" which dramatically extend airframe life.
>
> Now, let's say L-13's are now worthless. *If you could repair them for
> $10k, you have a $10k glider which seems like a good deal. *But, it
> would be a 1955 design with a 400Lb payload and probably a 1,500 hour
> life remaining and no possibility of extensions. *OTOH, you could use
> that $10k for a down payment on an ASK-21 with an 484 Lb payload and
> a18,000 hour life and charge an extra $10/hr for debt service 'til the
> loan is paid off. *But then, I'm kinda partial to ASK-21's as trainers.

Bill,

Let's do the back of the envelope calculations. $10k down and finance
$90k at 4.5% for 10 years. I show a monthly payment of $932. How big
of a club do you need to support the debt? We had just got to 12
members when the Blanik AD hit and were paying off the $13K we owned
on the Blaink. How does a club this size handle any of the
alternatives?

As I said there was a window of opportunity for the SSA to show true
leadership and value to the soaring community. I contacted the SSA
director for government relationship and was told there was nothing
they were doing. Not sure what you claim they have done since but we
have seen nothing that was useful. I called the SSA president and was
told there was nothing that the SSA could do.

The SSA could have:
1. Formed a task force to work on the problem. Many tried to
volunteer at the time and were told it was an LET and EASA problem.
2. Provided the task force with the aturity and backing of the SSA to
do two things.

On May 29, 4:40*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On May 29, 2:18*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 9:01*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
> > > There will most likely be a fix eventually but the cost is probably
> > > not going to be what people are hoping for. *(I hope I'm wrong about
> > > that.) *Please try not to shoot the messenger.
>
> > I was talking to several folks at a soaring event this weekend, and I
> > had been on the bandwagon of "ditch the L-13s and lets buy something
> > new" for awhile... *But their comments really made me see this in a
> > new light: *We've been considering the L-13 a $10k - $20k airplane,
> > and the idea of dumping $10k - $15k into it for a fix seems "wrong"
> > because its such a huge percentage of the airplane's value. *BUT,
> > there's another way to look at it. *Instead of considering the "street
> > value" of the L-13, try considering the cost of the L-13 repair in
> > contrast with the next-better alternative; which is either a Grob-103
> > or something like a TST-14 "Bonus" or SZD "Perkoz":
> > G-103 = Roughly $35k+ (also likely to be high-time and parts are ??)
> > TST-14 = Unknown, but gotta be at _least_ $60k+ I'm guessing
> > SZD "Perkoz" = Looks like a sweet setup and cheaper than an ASK-21,
> > but its still ~$85k (public quotes of 65,000 euros)
>
> > So in light of THOSE costs, dropping $10k - $15k on a Blanik is a hell
> > of a lot cheaper.
>
> > Of course, its still just a short-term fix. *Like our aging membership
> > issues, we find ourselves in a hole. This time around its equipment
> > and finances. *The US Soaring scene leaned on tired 2-33's (and
> > L-13's) for way too long and did not do a good job of building
> > infrastructure or making stepwise investments in better equipment. *So
> > now we have to try to dig ourselves out of a mess. *I sincerely hope
> > that more clubs do a better job of long-term financial planning than
> > they have done over the last 20 years; it seems that few people
> > consider charging enough money to put aside funds for re-covering,
> > buying new gear, or any other multi-year goals.
>
> > On the topic of longer-term solutions, I would love to see what the
> > new Lea County State Bank trainer loans look like. *With the EAA and
> > some aviation-oriented banks I can get 7-15 year loan terms on both
> > finished aircraft and even un-built KITS. *It seems that similar
> > financing should be available for sailplanes, with long terms given
> > the lengthy service-life that our aircraft experience.
>
> > I am also curious if any clubs have self-financed new equipment (by
> > taking out loans from members)? *Getting ~15 members to each pony up
> > $5k - $10k at 5% interest would get you a new trainer. *And promising
> > individuals a ~5% return on their money is a hell of a lot better than
> > most CDs or Money-Market accounts these days; and even better than
> > some stock portfolios! :-P
>
> > In the "I wish..." column, I'd love to see a non-Euro-currency country
> > out there building an inexpensive (say $50k - $60k) trainer. *The
> > aerodynamics nowadays are well-understood so it should be easy to make
> > something simple that has no "bad habits". *I've always been told that
> > its the tooling and labor costs - especially the labor costs - that's
> > the issue. *So shouldn't it be possible to get a known group of
> > aerodynamic and mechanical engineers together to make a solid design,
> > and then fabricate the darned thing in a region with lower labor
> > costs? I'm thinking South America, India, or another area where
> > technically-oriented people live and they can put something together
> > without major quality-control concerns... Seems like it should be
> > possible (see: Embraer, or some of the aerospace contracting that's
> > done in the Asia-Pacific region). *Of course, Windward performance
> > comes to mind for a "local" solution. *I'm sure they have a few
> > Duckhawk orders to process right now, but I wonder if Windward could
> > switch from PrePreg to some simpler fiberglass & kevlar layups and
> > operate cheaply enough to put out a reasonably-priced trainer that's
> > sold in US Dollars?
>
> > OK, enough wishing for now...
>
> > --Noel
> > P.S. *I am sure a few people are thinking about chiming in and saying
> > that a trainer has to be metal because it needs to be tied out. *My
> > only response is: If you can get the trainer down to a reasonable
> > price, you can afford a couple of extra thousand dollars for a nice
> > set of covers. *Also, Polyurethane is probably a good idea (to make
> > repainting/refinishing easier over the next couple of decades), no?
>
> Answering your 'PS' first, I fly ASK-21's which are so incredibly easy
> to rig, we rig them every morning and put them back in their trailers
> every night. *As an old geezer, I've rigged two of them with a couple
> of teenage CAP cadets to help. *Covered trailers are "hangars on
> wheels" which dramatically extend airframe life.
>
> Now, let's say L-13's are now worthless. *If you could repair them for
> $10k, you have a $10k glider which seems like a good deal. *But, it
> would be a 1955 design with a 400Lb payload and probably a 1,500 hour
> life remaining and no possibility of extensions. *OTOH, you could use
> that $10k for a down payment on an ASK-21 with an 484 Lb payload and
> a18,000 hour life and charge an extra $10/hr for debt service 'til the
> loan is paid off. *But then, I'm kinda partial to ASK-21's as trainers.

Bill,

Let's do the back of the envelope calculations. $10k down and finance
$90k at 4.5% for 10 years. I show a monthly payment of $932. How big
of a club do you need to support the debt? We had just got to 12
members when the Blanik AD hit and were paying off the $13K we owned
on the Blaink. How does a club this size handle any of the
alternatives?

As I said there was a window of opportunity for the SSA to show true
leadership and value to the soaring community. I contacted the SSA
director for government relationship and was told there was nothing
they were doing. Not sure what you claim they have done since but we
have seen no results so far. I called the SSA president and was
told there was nothing that the SSA could do.

The SSA could have:
1. Formed a task force to work on the problem. Many tried to
volunteer at the time and were told it was an LET and EASA problem.
2. Provided the task force with the authority and backing of the SSA
to
do two things.
a. Work with the FAA, EASA and LET to coordinate a solution that
would work in the USA.
b. Encourage a group of US engineers to develop a solution that
could be done within our system and meet the FAA requirements. We
were told originally that the solution must be done by LET and EASA,
but in later conversions with the FAA we have been told that a US
developed solution would be fine. The parts for the current solution
are only about $1000, the rest is just trying to recover cost for a
private firm that has developed one solution. If this had been done
by a SSA group we could likely do the fix for under $2000 per plane.
There have been many older non-flying glider that have been offered
for testing and we have many engineers that were willing to work on
the problem.

Our club was just reaching critical mass and was beginning to draw
many new members to the SSA and soaring. We don't have the resources
currently to make the step up to a $60 to $100K trainer. The Grobs for
the most part lack a useful load for training. The 2-22 and 2-33 lack
the capability to be useful for soaring. The Blanik is/was a very
valuable tool for allowing smaller clubs to grow large enough to step
up to the next level. I hope designers and glider pilots like Richard
VanGrunsven might consider designing a kit that can be built by a club
for $25K that will provide a 35:1 trainer.

> Bill,
>
> Let's do the back of the envelope calculations. *$10k down and finance
> $90k at 4.5% for 10 years. *I show a monthly payment of $932. *How big
> of a club do you need to support the debt? *We had just got to 12
> members when the Blanik AD hit and were paying off the $13K we owned
> on the Blaink. *How does a club this size handle any of the
> alternatives?

$932/12 = $77.67 per member. A new glider makes it much easier to
pick up a few more members as will the LGG campaign. Ask you
membership if this seems reasonable to them.
>
> As I said there was a window of opportunity for the SSA to show true
> leadership and value to the soaring community. *I contacted the SSA
> director for government relationship and was told there was nothing
> they were doing. *Not sure what you claim they have done since but we
> have seen no results so far. *I called the SSA president and was
> told there was nothing that the SSA could do.

If Al said there was nothing the SSA could do and you've seen no
'results', maybe Al was right.

>
> The SSA could have:
> 1. Formed a task force to work on the problem.

An effective TF has to be made up of engineers willing to work long
hours to be effective.



> an LET and EASA problem.
The short answer is it IS a LET and EASA problem - we're spectators.

> 2. Provided the task force with the authority and backing of the SSA
I'm not sure the SSA has 'authority' to do anything with respect to
the L-13 but I'm sure they are willing to 'back' any verifiable
solution.

> * *a. Work with the FAA, EASA and LET
I assure they know we're concerned.

> * *b. *Encourage a group of US engineers to develop a solution that
> could be done within our system and meet the FAA requirements.

There is a possibility of an "Alternative Means of Compliance"
acceptable to the FAA but alternative to what? As I understand it,
there's no consensus on the problem. It's also unlikely such an AOC
would be much less expensive since it has to meet the same
certification issues.


>The parts for the current solution are only about $1000, the rest is just trying to recover cost >for a private firm that has developed one solution.

That's the catch. If a private firm invests the engineering hours
(Lots of hours) to develop an LET/EASA/FAA certifiable solution, they
deserve compensation. You wouldn't believe the paperwork.


>If this had been done we could likely do the fix for under $2000 per plane..

You have my prayers and blessings.


> Our club was just reaching critical mass and was beginning to draw
> many new members to the SSA and soaring. We don't have the resources
> currently to make the step up to a $60 to $100K trainer. The Grobs for
> the most part lack a useful load for training. The 2-22 and 2-33 lack
> the capability to be useful for soaring. *The Blanik is/was a very
> valuable tool for allowing smaller clubs to grow large enough to step
> up to the next level. *I hope designers and glider pilots like Richard
> VanGrunsven might consider designing a kit that can be built by a club
> for $25K that will provide a 35:1 trainer.

Contact BobK.

> *The Blanik is/was a very
> valuable tool for allowing smaller clubs to grow large enough to step
> up to the next level. *I hope designers and glider pilots like Richard
> VanGrunsven might consider designing a kit that can be built by a club
> for $25K that will provide a 35:1 trainer.

The L-13 is NOT a very valuable tool for a club if it cannot be
safely flown be a portion of the members. I am 6'4" and cannot work
the spoilers and the rudder pedals to the full extent at the same
time. To me, it's a usless design and I am glad I wasn't subjected to
one as a solo student. I have no problem with the 103, K-21, 2-33, DG
505, 2-32 and the DUO (the only twins I have flown).

The latest numbers show a net gain of more than 350 new full members
in the last month for which statistics exist. The cause is not yet
known but, if it's offered, the LGG campaign won't turn down the
credit.

Does this mean we've turned a corner? Waaay too early to say but if
growth were to continue at that rate for a year, the SSA would be in a
far healthier state.

Want to help? Put a bumper sticker on your car and the big graphic on
your glider trailer. It seems to be working.

Bill Daniels
SSA Growth and Development Chairman

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 1:32:38 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
> The latest numbers show a net gain of more than 350 new full members
> in the last month for which statistics exist. The cause is not yet
> known but, if it's offered, the LGG campaign won't turn down the
> credit.
>
> Does this mean we've turned a corner? Waaay too early to say but if
> growth were to continue at that rate for a year, the SSA would be in a
> far healthier state.
>
> Want to help? Put a bumper sticker on your car and the big graphic on
> your glider trailer. It seems to be working.
>
> Bill Daniels
> SSA Growth and Development Chairman

Bill,

This is good news, indeed and I hope your projections are correct.

Reg. the LGG banners on trailers: as I mentioned before, my rinky-dinky trailer was the only one sporting the full-scale LGG decals at Parowan, which was a bit disappointing. I didn't poke around as to why nobody else installed them but I know they do the job.

- At one gas station, a young father and his maybe 5 year old son
came over and told us that he had about 5 solo hours from when he was
in the Air Force Academy. He was trying to explain to his son what a
glider is so I opened the trailer. He continued to tell me that he
would like to return but wife, kid(s) and career = hardly any time!
Haven't we heard that before? Maybe this encounter sparked new
interest

- Pulling into the parking lot at a sports bar in Grand Junction, CO and occupying 10 or 15 parking spots raised some interest with those sitting outside (had no idea why they were sitting outside since it felt like 200°F walking on the black-top). Anyhow, one women came over to us while we were eating (inside) and we started a lively conversation. She called her 21 year old son over and he was all enthused about it when I told him that he could have been flying solo for the last 7 years. He was going to spend his summer in Alamogordo, NM and I urged him to look up the local operation on the SSA web-site.

- At a gas station just inside of UT, an RV pulled up to the next pump and the couple asked me where I was going to fly at. Turns out they were tourists from Germany on their way to Vegas and they knew what was in the box even without the hint provided by the decals.

- A small car passed us on I-70 and the two young occupants rolled down their windows, stuck out an arm each and executed a well-coordinated banked turn from the left into the right lane - cute, broke up the monotony.

Although the stickers greatly reduce the opportunity to have some fun
with the un-washed masses by telling them that this is the grand
finale for a fireworks show or that we breed special safety horses for
multiple riders (long backs and short legs), etc., I think we should
encourage the contest crowd that is trailering across the country to
install the decals a bit more. Maybe we change the contest rules and
add 5 points to the score if they have it on their trailer ;-) (Wait - let me get into my Nomex-Coverall!)

GM

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:
> The latest numbers show a net gain of more than 350 new full members
> in the last month for which statistics exist. The cause is not yet
> known but, if it's offered, the LGG campaign won't turn down the
> credit.
>
> Does this mean we've turned a corner? Waaay too early to say but if
> growth were to continue at that rate for a year, the SSA would be in a
> far healthier state.
>
> Want to help? Put a bumper sticker on your car and the big graphic on
> your glider trailer. It seems to be working.
>
> Bill Daniels
> SSA Growth and Development Chairman

Bill, et al,

I think the report requires some detailing.

First, it spanned May 1 thru Jun 30, two months. Including Intro members, the total is 392.

Returning members, with breaks of one to over five years, 50
New full members, 187
Intro members, 79, (good on Pittsburgh Soaring Club for a sizable chunk, now make those you've attracted full members)
Business members, 2
Youth members, 67, 66 new, 1 returning, (grow these please)
Family members, 7, 5 new, 2 returning

That's five months of positive growth. Take good care of your new members.

Best regards,

Frank Whiteley

On Friday, July 13, 2012 12:12:14 PM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:

> Intro members, 79, (good on Pittsburgh Soaring Club for a sizable chunk, now make those you've attracted full members)

So far, Pittsburgh converted 6 out of 21 temporary members to permanent memberships this year, with one or two candidates expected to join later.

In my other club (not in the SSA), we always had many intro memberships, but a very low conversion rate. At that time, I changed the advertising from "experience of a lifetime" to "learn to fly!". I believe it was this changed advertising that attracted a different crop of people, and that was very good for the club. I believe the SSA is doing something similar with FAST, and it has been a boon to our club.

We benefited from some publicity in the past year: exhibiting three gliders at an "open house" day at a nearby airport (it was fun and no big deal to organize - we did them a favor!), having a title-page feature article with video in the Sunday edition of the regional newspaper, a presentation at the local Rotary club, and even a sale ad for one of our gliders on Barmstormers, which gained us an enthusiastic new power pilot member transitioning to gliders.

What are other clubs doing? I'm always looking for inspiration.

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:13:53 PM UTC-6, David Reitter wrote:
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 12:12:14 PM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> &gt; Intro members, 79, (good on Pittsburgh Soaring Club for a sizable chunk, now make those you've attracted full members)
>
> So far, Pittsburgh converted 6 out of 21 temporary members to permanent memberships this year, with one or two candidates expected to join later.
>
> In my other club (not in the SSA), we always had many intro memberships, but a very low conversion rate. At that time, I changed the advertising from &quot;experience of a lifetime&quot; to &quot;learn to fly!&quot;. I believe it was this changed advertising that attracted a different crop of people, and that was very good for the club. I believe the SSA is doing something similar with FAST, and it has been a boon to our club.
>
> We benefited from some publicity in the past year: exhibiting three gliders at an &quot;open house&quot; day at a nearby airport (it was fun and no big deal to organize - we did them a favor!), having a title-page feature article with video in the Sunday edition of the regional newspaper, a presentation at the local Rotary club, and even a sale ad for one of our gliders on Barmstormers, which gained us an enthusiastic new power pilot member transitioning to gliders.
>
> What are other clubs doing? I'm always looking for inspiration.

FAST was a compromise initially as I long argued for a three flight option for the package. Several commercial operators balked at the price range. So, the recommendation is to locally augment FAST as FAST Plus, offering two additional flight lessons for an additional charge. That gives the opportunity to generate at least one soaring flight, plus the Intro member returns a time or two to complete the package. When they've completed three lessons, they hold in their hands a log book showing some real progress toward becoming a glider pilot. Some clubs have varied this theme, allowing 4 or a few more lessons as an Intro member. They also have to wish to grow and be welcoming of these potential full members.

Yes, we have to wave the flag and locally this means taking a couple of 'public' opportunities each year to show gliders and talk with those showing an interest. It often means getting away from the port. The Let's Go Gliding campaign is continuing to evolve.

Frank Whiteley

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 8:31:10 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:13:53 PM UTC-6, David Reitter wrote:
> &gt; On Friday, July 13, 2012 12:12:14 PM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> &gt;
> &gt; &amp;gt; Intro members, 79, (good on Pittsburgh Soaring Club for a sizable chunk, now make those you&amp;#39;ve attracted full members)
> &gt;
> &gt; So far, Pittsburgh converted 6 out of 21 temporary members to permanent memberships this year, with one or two candidates expected to join later.

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:31:10 PM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> So, the recommendation is to locally augment FAST as FAST Plus, offering two additional
> flight lessons for an additional charge. That gives the opportunity to generate at least one
> soaring flight, plus the Intro member returns a time or two to complete the package.

What we do is to give people regular membership privileges for one month. They can come back, fly at member prices and get hooked.

At $100, we really can't give people more than one tow (we're paying the instructor as well), and at, say, $200 for three flights, we wouldn't get those who just want to try it out.

Oh, and we give people some credit if they turn their temporary into a full membership. This seems to work.

The other change we've made recently is to not ask for a large capital investment up front, but to stagger it over the first two years. Writing a $500 check seems like much more of a commitment than to hand over a $200 installment (minus $50 credit from that FAST ride).

I know at least one club with a mandatory $2,000 capital investment, and it's heartbreaking to see the lack of members and flying activity, given their awesome site.

On Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:46:51 PM UTC-6, David Reitter wrote:
> On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:31:10 PM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> &gt; So, the recommendation is to locally augment FAST as FAST Plus, offering two additional
> &gt; flight lessons for an additional charge. That gives the opportunity to generate at least one
> &gt; soaring flight, plus the Intro member returns a time or two to complete the package.
>
> What we do is to give people regular membership privileges for one month. They can come back, fly at member prices and get hooked.
>
> At $100, we really can't give people more than one tow (we're paying the instructor as well), and at, say, $200 for three flights, we wouldn't get those who just want to try it out.
>
> Oh, and we give people some credit if they turn their temporary into a full membership. This seems to work.
>
> The other change we've made recently is to not ask for a large capital investment up front, but to stagger it over the first two years. Writing a $500 check seems like much more of a commitment than to hand over a $200 installment (minus $50 credit from that FAST ride).
>
> I know at least one club with a mandatory $2,000 capital investment, and it's heartbreaking to see the lack of members and flying activity, given their awesome site.

This needs updating and some re-writing as the SSA Intro Membership now includes three issues of Soaring magazine.

http://www.ssa.org/files/member/SSA%20FAST%20and%20IM.ppt

On Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:46:51 PM UTC-6, David Reitter wrote:
> On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:31:10 PM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> &gt; So, the recommendation is to locally augment FAST as FAST Plus, offering two additional
> &gt; flight lessons for an additional charge. That gives the opportunity to generate at least one
> &gt; soaring flight, plus the Intro member returns a time or two to complete the package.
>
> What we do is to give people regular membership privileges for one month. They can come back, fly at member prices and get hooked.
>
> At $100, we really can't give people more than one tow (we're paying the instructor as well), and at, say, $200 for three flights, we wouldn't get those who just want to try it out.
>
> Oh, and we give people some credit if they turn their temporary into a full membership. This seems to work.
>
> The other change we've made recently is to not ask for a large capital investment up front, but to stagger it over the first two years. Writing a $500 check seems like much more of a commitment than to hand over a $200 installment (minus $50 credit from that FAST ride).
>
> I know at least one club with a mandatory $2,000 capital investment, and it's heartbreaking to see the lack of members and flying activity, given their awesome site.

I think the three lesson option sets a price point that filters out the drive-by shooter. Next week or month that person may be ballooning, taking a tandem paraglider flight, or something else. If you are going to make the effort to take prospective member an SSA Intro member and club/chapter Intro member make a best effort at recruitment. There are arguments about giving rides or not giving rides in a club. A single flight lesson and 1/2 hour ground school is little more than that unless handled with finesse. At the same time we are entertaining prospective members or giving rides, we are denying our bread and butter members access to club assets. At one time, my club was able to convert 80% of those completing our three-lesson mini-course to full members.

We currently have 25 or 26 chapters that are 501(c)(3) charitable organizations. Joining fees and dues may be partially or wholly tax deductible among other tax exemptions.

Frank